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https://steamcommunity.yuanyoumao.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3241350525
apologies if this seems like a waste of your time.
Boomers are unbalanced. They still react quick, has long vomit range and way more tanky thanks to the HP buff (how much HP does it have btw?). Even when I spot one at medium range it's still random whether I get vomit on or not depending on the gun I use. I think the vomit duration should be reduced so survivors can get their vision back faster in order to combat with the buffed horde.
I think Charger's melee damage should be reduced a bit because they're minitanks that can dash now. Chargers don't pin survivors anymore but they dash way more often, stunning nearby survivors for a good while. They hit you for 15 HP in Advanced while you're forced to deal with stun + horde, if you don't have a melee it's very punishing imo.
I understand the changes with the AK but they are extremely inaccurate and overly reliant on secondaries. A lot of times I feel like it's a shotgun used only to clear common hordes and that's it. If a survivor is caught by a Jockey or a Smoker from midrange you can't really do anything. Maybe make it inaccurate for run&gun but somewhat accurate at midrange if you crouch so you still have the ability to save others?
Tanks are super buffed and two of them is pretty much gonna be a death sentence. Tank works great when it's a single threat, but once you add anything into the mix it becomes really unbalanced...
Also just a question are you going to make a version for custom maps? This works great in vanilla but not so much on custom maps...
Thanks for reading! I love your mod!
This is a vanilla feature, not something that was added in TAO. Unless you meant the Hunters ability to stun people? This is also a vanilla feature, but I made it stronger. The change was added because during testing, Hunters proved to be outright useless against teams that stayed close together (as in, they'd die before even getting a single hit in). By increasing the strength of their impact stun, it gives them a very brief window to attack before they're inevitably killed. Spitters occupy a different niche of area denial and finishing off incapped survivors.
The Boomer changes are to improve their consistency. You won't notice, but in Vanilla L4D2 there are many times when a Boomer should've hit you, but it didn't. They wait for a full second before vomiting, they have to get extremely close, the vomit only travels a short distance and it has pretty bad hitreg. All of these factors combine to make Boomers fairly ineffective unless you're already completely occupied by something else. In TAO, they're ineffective if you know they're coming (they're still bad at range, and can be countered with shoving and map geometry) but they're consistently effective at their ideal range.
They also have 150HP instead of 50 like in Vanilla. Most of TAOs buffed weapons can still kill them faster than they can vomit.
As far as I am aware, Charger melee damage is hard coded and can't be reduced.
If you're struggling with Chargers, TAO does introduce some new counterplay for them. Their charge ability will fail at close range, so staying just outside of melee range is reasonably safe. They also move 20% slower while charging, making it easier to dodge and reducing the distance they can carry a survivor. Survivors do also have damage immunity while recovering from the charge, so it will usually only get 1 hit in before you can fight back.
The AK is intended to be tap fired. Using it as a full auto is only effective at point blank. To hit targets from further away, crouch and fire just a couple of bullets at a time, then wait for your accuracy to recover.
The weakness against Jockeys and Smokers is intentional, and falls within TAOs core design principle of giving every weapon clearly defined strengths and weaknesses. The AK has the highest damage potential of the rifles, and one of the highest out of any of the rifles. It also has a very high point blank DPS. The downside to this is its ineffectiveness at range. If it was adjusted to still be effective at range while crouching, it would compete with and overshadow the M16 and Desert Rifle (like it does in vanilla). Each of these weapons is better suited to long range combat, but in turn have their own downsides (M16 has a low damage potential, Desert Rifle burns through ammo quickly)
This should only be an issue on the Swamp Fever finale, where you have a minigun and some excellent kiting geometry to help you deal with the Tanks. If you're struggling, you have to adjust your tactics; walking backwards and attacking won't work as well since the Tank will close the distance. To deal with rock throws, keep your distance and change the direction you're travelling after the rock leaves the Tanks hand so that it can't adjust its aim. Adrenaline will help a lot because you move faster than in Vanilla while under its effects, and you can revive any downed teammates faster too.
Every custom map is different, so this would be impossible. What works on one might be completely broken on another. I based the mod around purely vanilla L4D2 played on normal difficulty (that might also be why you're struggling with other aspects, it's meant to be played on normal, not advanced or expert!)
The arc increase is really unneeded. The long range grenades from before were not only super fun, but what the grenade launcher was all about. Even when the grenades are in range, it also just doesn’t take out as many common infected, again, no fun. The grenade launcher was one of those weapons I think was fine before, and one I would like to see changed back.
When you say it was fine before, do you mean in vanilla?
It's still mostly doable, you just have to adjust your aim and look up higher before you shoot.
Since I wanted to avoid limited ammo weapons (that's the #1 reason they never get used in vanilla) the grenade launcher had to be nerfed in other ways. It's a necessary sacrifice in a way.
I know how to adjust my aim, but even then I can’t get the range (or the splash damage) I need.
Of course if you play with the same few people consistently and you all happen to like the grenade launcher, you'll assume there's no problem. That doesn't apply to the general playerbase though. Most people don't want a powerful but limited weapon, they want consistently strong weapons, hence why the grenade launcher has been made consistently strong in TAO by giving it refillable ammo but keeping its splash damage and stun capabilities.
- The MP5 has less accuracy and clip size than the silenced SMG, yet it does less DPS than the silenced SMG too. It never really felt great to use, I would definitely buff the DPS closer to 250 to put it closer to the low-DPS T2 weapons.
- The AK-47 falls into a similar situation, since the desert rifle outclasses it in both damage and accuracy (where before I assumed the AK-47 was the low accuracy, higher damage variant). Even with burst firing and avoiding spamming to keep the accuracy low, with that playstyle I might as well use the military sniper. I would really like to see it as a close-range high-DPS variant instead, and I would place the DPS in the 350 or even 400 range to bridge the gap between the high-accuracy high-damage desert rifle and the low-accuracy extreme-dps of the M60.
- The SG552 now feels like a T1 gun, boasting very similar (often worse) stats to the silenced SMG. Having 188 DPS at close range with significantly less while scoped is just useless. I think this gun is in the biggest purpose crisis because I want to like the scope (and I did in vanilla), but being an LMG doesn’t quite suit that playstyle. (If anything you should switch these stats with the AK’s stats so scoped shots would actually be worth it. Or do a big reshuffle where the M16 is the LMG; the AK-47 is the close-range, high-dps; the desert rifle is the all-rounder; and the SG552 is the high-damage shots that punish you for missing)
I reiterate that being an advanced / expert player might make some of these opinions differ from yours since for me, every bit of fine tuning and weapon balance matters a lot. I still hold my opinions on the grenade launcher and my preference for the T3 weapons being carry-able, but at the end of the day it is your mod, and a great one at that.
A few extra points to consider for the MP5:
1) It has a 35% higher damage potential than the Silenced SMG. Survivors generally burn through more ammo with TAO due to certain specials having larger health pools and hordes being bigger, so being able to go longer without needing to worry about changing your gun can be advantageous. If a Silenced SMG user and MP5 user were both in a holdout situation, the Silenced SMG user would run out of ammo when the MP5 user still had around 200 bullets left if they'd dealt the same amount of damage total.
2) Since V1, the Silenced SMG has had a lower penetration power than vanilla. I forgot to mention it in the V3 stats (it's listed in the V1 and V2 description for the Silenced SMG but I rewrote it for V3), but the SSMG has a max penetration of 1, whereas the MP5 has a max of 2, so you can hit extra zombies with each bullet. This gives the MP5 an advantage during horde events, or in areas where zombies are funnelling through a small area.
Actually, the AK47 is the close-range high-DPS rifle.
The M60 is listed as having a much higher DPS than the AK. However, this assumes that all 3 of its bullets will hit a target. The M60 behaves similarly to a shotgun: you pull the trigger once, 1 bullet is subtracted from the clip, but 3 individual pellets are fired at random angles. This means that potentially 1 or 2 pellets won't hit the target, dealing less damage overall. The M60 is better when you can't miss, like if you're shooting into a crowd or at a Tank, but it's less accurate than the AK and often deals way less damage overall if only 1 pellet hits the target each time.
With the Desert Rifle, it has a higher accuracy, damage and DPS than the AK47. It also has way less ammo; the AK47 has a 50% higher damage potential. You also can't fire just 1 shot with the Desert Rifle, it has to be at least 3 because it's still technically a burst fire gun, so you burn through ammo faster against single targets. The AK has a faster reload too, so you aren't left as vulnerable.
You also mentioned the Military Sniper, but it's a definite long range weapon. The AK is easily the better choice at close range and against crowds, since the Military Sniper can't penetrate, it reloads slowly, and it has less ammo.
To summarise the rifles:
M16: The 'base' variant; good at all ranges, moderate damage, fast reload. The best choice for run and gun shooting.
AK47: More effective at close range due to increased damage, less effective at mid range due to decreased accuracy. The best choice in tighter spaces and against hordes.
Desert Rifle: Higher damage and accuracy, but runs out of ammo quickly and you spend a lot of time vulnerable from the frequent and slow reloads. The best choice when you have access to an ammo pile and plenty of space between you and your target.
M60: Has the potential to deal massive point blank DPS, but becomes drastically less consistent at mid range. It's almost an exaggerated form of the AK47. The best choice for killing whatever's right in your face.
The purpose of an LMG is to hold down a location and provide suppressive fire.
With the scope, the SG552 becomes the best weapon in the game for this purpose. The scope reduces the firing speed of the gun. Combined with its 80 round clip, you can fire continuously for a very long time before needing to reload. The scope also improves your accuracy; common infected die if they take any damage to the head, and the SG552 gives you 80 rounds that can now be accurately fired at head height. It also has a max penetration of 3 so you can hit multiple targets at once, and 650 reserve ammo that's classified as rifle ammo rather than SMG ammo, so you can share it with other rifle wielding teammates.
If you try to run and gun with it, it's basically just a bulkier SMG. If you only use the scope against single targets, it's just an SMG that fires slower. But if you hold down a position where most of your targets are attacking from one direction, the SG552 is one of the best choices for dealing with them.
This is probably where all of our disagreements stem from. My biggest gripes on expert are the hunters staggering nearby players on pounces, the smoker stunning players after the tongue is cut, and every single change made to the tanks. Though the buffs may have been needed in normal, they are definitely not needed in higher play.
The witch on the other hand feels pretty comically weak. As compared to vanilla it’s slower and does less damage, and they’re increased agro range pretty much means sneaking past isn’t usually successful — we just expect to kill all of the witches in our way, sometimes we’re able to kill multiple at once. I would definitely make her faster & more damage, but back to a more standard agro range.